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  1. #31
    I consider fixing basic functionality a bigger priority than an extension shop, yes. Both SW and the extension developers already monetized their software, aka I already paid them. Now fix bugs before asking me to participate in another monetization effort.

  2. #32
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weissrolf View Post
    I consider fixing basic functionality a bigger priority than an extension shop, yes. Both SW and the extension developers already monetized their software, aka I already paid them. Now fix bugs before asking me to participate in another monetization effort.
    All software development has to be prioritized against a number of factors, some that may not be obvious looking from the outside. This is a low priority at present. Those are the facts of the matter. You seem to think that going on and on about low priority things on these forums will change that. You should have learnt by now that approach doesn't work on these forums. You've raised your issue, the main FG dev has said they plan to look into it. That's it.
    Last edited by Trenloe; January 16th, 2021 at 14:57.

    FG Con 16 FG Online RPG Convention - Friday April 16th Sunday 18th, 2021.
    FG Con 17: October 15th 17th, 2021.

    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  3. #33
    Thanks for weighting in your opinion like I weighted in my own. Customer feedback is important, especially from those who already paid for a supposedly functioning product.
    Last edited by Weissrolf; January 16th, 2021 at 15:23.

  4. #34
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weissrolf View Post
    Customer feedback is important, especially from those who already paid for a supposedly functioning product.
    I agree. No one is disputing that this is an issue and you're entitled to raise it. Which you have, and it's been recognised. But if you keep going on and on about something this low priority (yes, in the greater scheme of things, it is a low priority) it gets extremely annoying, and actually ends up being counter productive; ever heard of the saying "you catch more bees with honey than vinegar"? It's very appropriate - especially on these forums and with Fantasy Grounds employees. It is definitely not a case of "he who shouts loudest gets heard" - far from it. You've given your important customer feedback, the main FG dev heard and replied to you that they'll look into it. Realising this wasn't good enough for you, community members tried to help by offering alternatives, but you dismiss their assistance and steadfastly focus on a low priority issue that the devs say they'll look into. It wastes peoples time, is incredibly annoying and is counter productive. Do you actually think you're helping your cause? No, you're not. You're only shooting yourself in the foot by constantly nagging about such issues.
    Last edited by Trenloe; January 16th, 2021 at 16:12.

    FG Con 16 FG Online RPG Convention - Friday April 16th Sunday 18th, 2021.
    FG Con 17: October 15th 17th, 2021.

    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  5. #35
    Just to post my issues with tokens on FGC and FGU. which seems to be inconsistent and broken on both platforms...


    FGC v3.3.12, see fgc.png..

    this manages tokens better than fgu does at the moment. As expected when you move a token it become the top of the stack... ( on host side, seems same on client. )

    My issue is that 'selection' seems to run from the bottom of the stack !!!

    while you can not see my 'cursor' in the image its over 'c' for crocodile, which is at the top of stack visibility, while 's' for sue is at the bottom.. if I 'click' it moves 'sue' and not 'crocodile'.

    I'm not sure if this is 'as expected', because if 'c' crocodile was fully over 's' sue I'd not be able to move sue if it picked from the top without moving crocodile

    From a 'user' point of view, if my cursor is over 'c' crocodile I'd expect to move 'c' for crocodile.

    So when I move a token I have to keep a good eye on the 'help' text as that does seem to show which token will be used... its just not good when the cursor is over a token at the top and it move a different token..


    FGU v4.0.7 ( updated yesterday with release notes, 'Token widgets would sometimes draw out of order. Fixed.', not sure if this is tokens on map or on say character sheet when 'dice' tokens are added to corner of ui boxes etc.. )

    with FGU see 'fgu_before.png', this is the token setup.. and 'fgu_after', when I select and move 's' token it goes from top of stack to below 'b', you can see in both cases the 'green' run of last selected and the tokens not been on top.

    ( As others have said NPC tokens seem to end up at the bottom.. )

    while 'selection' for tokens works as I'd expect, mouse over the top visible does select and help text the top token. ( unlike FGC.. )



    Notes..

    While this has an issue with my extension for spell tokens, the fact that the basic FGC and FGU have different 'render order' updates and different 'selection' pickups, I consider an issue. ( As we expect both to work in the same way.. )


    While I understand that FGC seems render order is in '<tokens>' section of moduledb xml and as you move token the '<token>' list changes order with render order been in order of '<token>' array so when you move a token it end up at the end of the list or the bottom of the file...

    While FGU in the modulesdb xml file uses a new 'layer' per token and a <token> section in that layer, it seems that the <parentid> controls draw order, but this can be inconsistent. Even with a few items as things moved about I've seen these got to -11 way more than the 'map layer' priority... as it would suggest that these should be negative draw order.. if -1 draws on top of -2 going down the count to the main map which 'should' be the lowest value. ( And gets lower as you add more tokens/layers etc.. ) But I've seen -1(s) -2(b) -4(c) draw for token S on top down to token C at the bottom, and -3(b) -2(c) -1(s) with token B on top to token S at the bottom... which implies some other item is controlling draw order and not <parentid>

    I suspect these sorts of differences are why FGC/FGU differ in token draw order responses and token selection responses.

    From my extension point of view, mainly FGU usage, the inconsistent <parentid> values make is impossible for me to control this to create the order I want, but I've not implemented a test due to visual observation showing these inconsistencies..
    While for FGC I could probably grab the <tokens> list and force in an order change and maybe make these work with the spell tokens always going at the head of the list and so drawn just after the map with other tokens on top..
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenloe View Post
    Which you have, and it's been recognised. But if you keep going on and on about something this low priority (yes, in the greater scheme of things, it is a low priority) it gets extremely annoying, and actually ends up being counter productive
    I raised the original issue 1.5 months ago and now asked for the current status. The community answered that I should keep using the workaround (ad infinitum). You may find the former annoying, I may find the latter annoying.

    We will not agree that a new monetizing extension shop system should be prioritized over already paid for product support. At least not at a time when the originally paid for product is officially only 2 months old! I paid for working software and for getting bugs fixed. You can keep the change for inventing a new shop system later.

    ever heard of the saying "you catch more bees with honey than vinegar"?
    We are not in the bees business. I paid for a software product that officially was only released 2 months ago. Support the product you were paid for, don't tell me to use workaround and wait for a vaguely promised future system without time-line given.

    You've given your important customer feedback, the main FG dev heard and replied to you that they'll look into it.
    Said developer wrote that they may integrate a new system some time in a vaguely future. This is not what was asked for. What was asked for is that an issue with the current system is fixed in a timely manner. The product was released only 2 months ago, the issue was raised 1.5 months ago. Vaguely promising a whole new system is not the answer to the issue being raided.

    Realising this wasn't good enough for you, community members tried to help by offering alternatives, but you dismiss their assistance and steadfastly focus on a low priority issue that the devs say they'll look into. It wastes peoples time, is incredibly annoying and is counter productive. Do you actually think you're helping your cause? No, you're not. You're only shooting yourself in the foot by constantly nagging about such issues.
    Asking for a neutral status update 1.5 months after raising the original issue if not exactly "constantly nagging". Here is what I wrote: "Unfortunately still not fixed in the last version. Is this looked into?"

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    But here is some nagging: The product is new, it's just been released. Support your just released and paid for product first, invent other monetizing products later (extension shop)!
    Last edited by Weissrolf; January 16th, 2021 at 17:47.

  7. #37
    No offense Weissrolf, but you brought up an issue. It was noted. Now you you have to wait. I have issues I consider more important than yours - but once I note them - and feel they have been seen and noted - I do not go on like "my issue" is the most important issue. Limited resources, many things to accomplish. Your issue is not important to me - I know how to work around it. My issues are probably not important to you.

    But some friendly advice - that I know you'll misconstrue - but I feel needs to be said anyway...

    Point made. Nothing you are saying is new and you are sounding like you think your issues are more important than mine and should be moved to the front of the queue. I object, as I feel mine are more important and they should be at the front of the queue. And I'm sure other feel theirs's are more important and both of our issues need to be moved back in the queue so their priorities can be addressed first. And yet others....

    As you can see - there is a lot going on - and because you feel you should get special treatment moving your issue to the top of "things that need to be done" is not going to go over well.

    I know you won't see it this way - but that's fine. I don't see it your way either.
    Last edited by SilentRuin; January 16th, 2021 at 18:20.

  8. #38
    Well, after 1.5 months I have yet to know if the issue is going to be fixed or not. The only answer given was that at some point in the future there will be an overhaul. Given that the product just came out 2 months ago this is indeed not a satisfactory answer.

    No problem waiting for your issues to be fixed first, every support for an already paid product is good. But issues not being fixed because of new monetizing features when the product was only just released is not an answer I am going to have much sympathy for at this point.

    But point taken: 1.5 months is not enough time to wait, so I will ask for a new status 3 months from now instead. Several paid for spell token packs (+extensions) remain unused until then.
    Last edited by Weissrolf; January 16th, 2021 at 23:08.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weissrolf View Post
    because of new monetizing features
    Sorry, but what I find a bit annoying and do completely not understand is your issue with that you need to pay extra, for whatever reason. First of all, extensions are not from SmiteWorks and by far not mandatory. When you decide to buy one, then that has nothing to do with SmiteWorks' own development. You have probably a permanent license, that means you do not need to pay anything for many many years (Unity which one had to buy separately came after 16 years of FGC), while still recieving all possible updates without any fee.

    Second, it was mentioned by the devs that the Forge will actually not support monetizing anything at the beginning. It is first of all about building a portal where people can easily distribute and update their community stuff. And, that type of portal is already asked for many years, that subject came up very often. That probably beats your 1.5 months, and many people see that as a lack/problem as you do with the token stacking, so, just following that argument the Forge is more important. (As an extension developer, I am way more excited about the Forge and find it more important, but, again, not due to the monetizing thing, which may come somewhen, because I won't ask for money. That also shows that the Forge is about free stuff by the way, too, to come back to my first argument. Dynamic lighting is also extremely more important for me, and you probably saw in the forums that this is the case for many, simply also due to that many other vtts have that such that this is also viewed as a lack of FG by many; so, also here understandable that lighting has way more priority)

    So, I really understand your frustration, and it would be indeed nice to have a better token system. But please understand that your sense of priority is really not shared by everyone Tokens were not intended to be used like that, also not in FGC; that may also probably explain why it has not so much priority because the intended ways for the things you want to do is what you call "workaround". But then you raised your problem, so, a dev answered and was aware of that there are people using tokens not just from the CT. After the release of the spell template module there were even more people asking for a new system of those things to allow players more control over that, which is why I linked you a more recent answer of Moon Wizard about that this request is more upfront now and they will speak about its priority in February among other requested features (but beware, another frequent request is the built-in sound stuff which was mentioned by the devs until the forge came up; so, that might have more priority after the forge and the lighting) (and to be clear, the linked answer was about the spell templates, but it is somewhat related to this here, because you use those for that and you have this token problem also when players apply their spell templates. So, related)

    My recommendation is really: Stay away from paid extensions which are not from SmiteWorks, because you mention that monetizing thing so often that I got the feeling that you are frustrated about to have paid extra money for something which does currently not work, which I understand. But there is only so much one can do with community work. Ask for a refund of that extension(s)/module(s)

    It is just a bit frustrating for me to spend time for you searching for more recent answers of the devs about that, and at the end you just say we always write the same "ad infinitum"
    Last edited by Kelrugem; January 17th, 2021 at 02:19.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelrugem View Post
    Sorry, but what I find a bit annoying and do completely not understand is your issue with that you need to pay extra, for whatever reason.
    I did not claim that I need to pay extra, so no need to be annoyed. My original post was a simple one-liner status update question, which then again got blown up into a discussion for my entitlement to post these questions.

    What I then wrote was that I already paid for a product that only came out 2 months ago and that I also bought spell templates (graphics) to be used as asset tokens. I would prefer developer time being spent on the just released product instead of diverting energy to other new products for the time being.

    You have probably a permanent license, that means you do not need to pay anything for many many years (Unity which one had to buy separately came after 16 years of FGC), while still recieving all possible updates without any fee.
    At this time I am just happy to receive bug fixes and optimizations for the product that I only just bought. No one knows what happens in a year or ten. Once Corona restrictions are over my groups will meet at the table again, with me using FGU for the CT and adventure/NPC details only. We will use printed out maps on the table instead of FGU maps then.

    Second, it was mentioned by the devs that the Forge will actually not support monetizing anything at the beginning.
    When I asked in this very thread: "How can the Forge be higher priority than one of the most basic and long-time features?" the first answer given by the community was: "There are work arounds for non-CT token use. There is no work arounds for extension developers who wish to get paid."

    It is first of all about building a portal where people can easily distribute and update their community stuff. And, that type of portal is already asked for many years, that subject came up very often.
    And I am all for it. But when I bought FGU it was not advertised as a vehicle for an extension shop, it was advertised as a VTT that enabled me to do VTT things. Placing spell tokens on the map is a VTT thing which currently is useless in FGU because NPC tokens get covered up.

    Moving an asset token directly on the map is a simple action: grab the token, drop it somewhere else. Moving an image layer around involves pressing three different buttons at different places on the screen while forfeiting map screen estate to do so. Only after that can you grab and drop the token. One is quick set and forget, the other is cumbersome enough that I do not care to introduce that extra work in my ongoing sessions, despite already having bought spell templates for extra money.

    That probably beats your 1.5 months, and many people see that as a lack/problem as you do with the token stacking, so, just following that argument the Forge is more important.
    The Forge is a feature outside of the main product. I paid for the main product and it did not seem to work properly. So 1.5 months I wrote a bug report and now I asked for a simple and neutral status update. Unfortunately that lead to a discussion whether I am entitled to do so. Next time I will wait at least 3 months before asking for a status update.

    Dynamic lighting is also extremely more important for me, and you probably saw in the forums that this is the case for many, simply also due to that many other vtts have that such that this is also viewed as a lack of FG by many; so, also here understandable that lighting has way more priority)
    I did not question dynamic lighting to be "important". At this point in time LOS and promise for DL is explicitly the only feature that makes our groups endure the trials and tribulations of Unity (plus the hurdles of re-importing an ongoing campaign back from FGU to FGC).

    Tokens were not intended to be used like that, also not in FGC; that may also probably explain why it has not so much priority because the intended ways for the things you want to do is what you call "workaround".
    The "workaround" listed in this thread are not even possible in FGC, so how were spell template tokens supposed to be used back then?! And if asset tokens are not meant to be dragged and dropped on maps, why is it even possible? Do I need to change my bug report to "tokens can be dragged to the map, this is not intended and thus seems like a bug"?

    I surely appreciate getting workaround hints from the community, as a computer guy I know about software restrictions and need for workarounds. But I appreciate hints mostly when I ask for them, not when they are shoved down my throat while telling me to be happy with the substitute. From a paying customer's point of view workarounds are like asking for the airport in this town while everyone keeps pointing to the bus station three towns away. At some point the road to the airport either gets finished within a well defined time-line or better close the whole airport down.

    But then you raised your problem, so, a dev answered and was aware of that there are people using tokens not just from the CT.
    They better are aware, because their software allows to do so for years already and dragging tokens onto the map seems like the most natural thing to do. At no point does the software suggest that the user is not supposed to do this despite it being possible.

    ... which is why I linked you a more recent answer of Moon Wizard about that this request is more upfront now
    Moon Wizard: "However, all of our developers are currently tied up with Lighting/Vision and Forge projects, in addition to ongoing maintenance and fixes."

    I thought I was asking for a maintenance fix here, but obviously I am not. Seems like I am asking for a new feature which cannot be implemented for the time being because everyone is tied up with other stuff.

    and they will speak about its priority in February among other requested features
    Moon Wizard: "and this is one of the possible projects."

    Again, I thought I was asking for a maintenance fix, not a new feature: Keep asset tokens from covering NPC tokens. Lower asset strata versus NPC strata and we are good to go for some time. Implement new features once the present features are conveniently usable.

    ... you mention that monetizing thing so often that I got the feeling that you are frustrated about to have paid extra money for something which does currently not work, which I understand.
    I don't like software companies diverting developer time away from just released products in order to bring out new products. Even less so when subscription models are used. Adobe is one of the companies that keep spending my subscription money on new stuff while neglecting the old, bad luck for me.

    Ask for a refund of that extension(s)/module(s)
    The extension works as advertised, no need asking for a refund. The asset vs. NPC problem is independent of extensions, which is why I reported it as an issue and asked for a simple status update 1.5 months later, or any answer directly relating to the problem at hand instead of future visions of new and different features.

    It is just a bit frustrating for me to spend time for you searching for more recent answers of the devs about that, and at the end you just say we always write the same "ad infinitum"
    Thanks for the extra mile, it's well appreciated. I did not state that you keep writing the same ad infinitum. I stated that the hints are telling to keep using workarounds ad infinitum.

    Ask one of my players who gets kicked out twice a night every week if he intends to spend money on FantasyGrounds in a foreseeable future. Ask one of the other members of my gaming groups if they intend to move money towards SW's way. These are people who spent a lot of money on their RPG hobby, they experience FantasyGrounds first hand every week, but still not a single one felt an urge to spent money on it during a pandemic that keeps people mostly only playing via VTT. In a way that's okay, because I bought the Ultimate licence in order to pay for everyone else. But if using FGU regularly is not incentive to buy it then SW might have a problem finding new customers.

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